Roundtable: Offshore is not off limits | Global Solutions
- 38 mins 42 secs
To discuss the intricacies of offshore investing, as well as the different solutions and platforms available, we are joined by:
- Janet Hugo, Certified Finiancial Planner, Sterling Private Wealth
- Andrew Brotchie, Managing Director, Glacier International
- Wayne Sorour, Head, Old Mutual International Sales & Distribution
Automatically generated using Asset TV AI and Amazon Web Services.
It may contain errors and omissions.
Welcome to asset TVs South African round table discussion on retirement global Solutions with me, Joanne bone. Um today I'm joined by Wayne Saru, head of old Mutual International Sales and Distribution Andrew brodsky Managing Director, Glacier International and Janet Hugo certified financial planner sterling wealth offshore is quite a minefield for a lot of people. It's just impossible to even think about it. It's too difficult to invest Janet, let's go back to 101 investing and how much money can you take for sure. Should you wish to do so well, you can take as much as you like. It's just how difficult you want to make it. So there are different regulations around how much can be taken off shore and those are usually governed by the reserve bank And your tax clearance that you'll need to be able to send as much as 10 million a year plus your one million travel allowance that can also go overseas each year. But the more important thing to think about in your offshore allocation is how much money you have to invest and what you want to do with it because as soon as you allocate money overseas, you're adding in an extreme volatility that happens in the rand and it's not just the underlying investments that you have to worry about, but also our currency moves. So I think the amount that you allocate or overseas, and I'm sure my colleagues will debate this with me is how much you're spending in South Africa and where you're going to be spending, Okay Andrew, let's play devil's advocate here. And to Janet's point, you have enough money to invest inshore offshore and have enough money on shore to live in terms of your global solutions that you guys offer, what the minimums one needs to invest in to put money into your products. So we've got, we've got to Joe We've got a, what's known as an offshore endowment rapper, which is effectively a solution which helps financial planning by structuring your offshore investment. And the minimum for that is is $25,000 us or currency equivalent. Um but we also have a more simplified product offering, which is which is effectively an administration platform for offshore unit trusts and the minimums for that, or 100,000 rand um, as a minimum investment. Okay, so it's becoming much easier for people with small amounts of money to start investing offshore because $25,000 was 250, what did you say? 250 or 2 25? 25,000. But I mean in in Rand terms, that's still that's still expensive. Yeah. Look, I I think it's it's definitely a point that's that's changing in the South African investment landscape, people are very aware that South Africa, even from an investment point of view, is is a relatively small part of the global market, so, so in order to access different international opportunities, they want to take money offshore. And previously it was a fairly costly exercise in terms of minimums. But I think a lot of work has been done by byproduct suppliers in South Africa to try and make sure that a wider range of people can get access to international opportunities. So when an old mutuals platform, what are your minimums and how does it work? I must agree with Andrew, I think it's a bigger, broader dynamic of uh clients wanting to invest offshore, a lot of younger guys. And so we recently reduced our minimums to $20,000, Um and we've got to two types of investments or to access points, one being funds, and there's $20,000 to access funds on a platform. And then we've got the custodian side of the business, of the stockbroking side Where the minimum is $75,000. I mean it's a bit difficult to buy individual stocks, you know, with $20,000, you might buy amazon and half of half of something else. So $75,000 for custody and $20,000 for fun business. So dan it. If you are advising a client to take money offshore, would you advise them to go to the investment platform route? Would you say to them what you invest directly and what is the thinking behind these decisions you make on behalf of a client? So platform route as Andrew and Andrew Uh and Wayne have just explained has two different divides in there. Your first divide is your tax rate because they're going to assume in the one platform, the endowment platform, that your tax rate is 30% on your income And approximately 12% on your capital gains rate. So when your advisors advising you and guiding use to the outcome, my guess is that they're going to say to you, what's your tax rate and which is the most appropriate platform and then choose platform within the wrapper or the endowment. But if you're talking about going in investing directly, that opens a huge can of worms, because each place that you invest then becomes an issue if you pass away, because let's assume that you brought some apple shares or you've bought some mutual funds in America and then you're going to be buying some mutual funds in Ireland you can be winding up your state in two different places. So it is more technically difficult to make these decisions without an advisor. I think that's the first thing to think about is what's going to happen next, not just the investment strategy now. Okay, so Andrew, I'm hearing it's administratively better and from a state planning tax perspective to go the endowment route, maybe tell me more about your endowment wrapper on glacier. Yeah, so maybe if I can take a step back just for a second, joe, just on on that. I mean, effectively clients have got, in my view, three different options or historically have used three different options to gain offshore exposure. So you either go directly with which is like Janet was just talking about which has its own particular administrative issues, if you, especially if you're diversity diversifying across countries and across and across product suppliers. The other one that was very popular a few decades ago was the use of offshore trusts. Um, and I think a lot of South African clients did make use of offshore trust structures, but I think in the way that the tax authorities around the world now are viewing these types of vehicles as as I think some people use them previously as shielding structures is no longer applicable, so they're quite expensive mechanisms to structure uh offshore investments. And so I think what, what has come to the fore more recently now is the kind of product that ourselves and old Mutual International offer, which is this offshore Endowment, which does allow you to wrap wrap your investments from an administrative point of view, which gives you access to, you know, trust and share portfolios, reduces your potential tax liability, takes away the need to try and wind up the state's offshore, um and and also, you know, takes it away from, and there's a horrible latin word, site is tax about, you know, where your, where your investments are actually located, gives the authorities in those jurisdictions the ability to tax those on death and by and by structuring and structuring and appropriately, it actually takes care of a lot of those issues that clients do worry about down the line when um Andrew mentioned cystitis. There's also the issue of probate, maybe just explain to us what that is and what that entails. I think that was suddenly with Janet was indirectly referring to when people die without being in a structure like like an endowment or a rapper as we call it. Um And incidentally, we had a case now recently where the client had an investment with us through a rapper and beneficial nominate nomination. And then also had a direct investment through Jersey. We obviously enacted the beneficial nomination and in about a couple of weeks, clients could have access to the beneficiaries, could have access to the investment. There's a direct investment through Jersey. Uh they had to apply for problems and it's a mission. I mean, I actually showed on my recent roadshow. Now the documentation that was given to the executive to fill in, I mean, you know, affidavit soon affidavits sealed copies of the wills et cetera. And then the costs, I mean, there was a cost for the lawyers. There was a cost for stamp duty, there was all sorts of types in a cost involved. But for me, it also is the delaying of, you know, finalizing their state and the executive insists with time apportionment and and not being able to get the assets obvious state, you know, to the beneficiary. So again, using the rapper with beneficial nominations within three weeks, these new heirs have got access to their money and it's liquid as well, you know, you know, for them. And besides this one, as Andrew mentioned is big, especially for the stockbroking side and a big portion of our business is this, you know, stockbroking where the guys are earning direct shares specifically on the new york stock exchange. And I mean In excess of $60,000, which is nothing, you you're liable for 40% off shore inheritance tax. Uh, You know, we, we only pay 20% in South Africa. So that's why the rapper again, for those clients is very popular. Andrew you wanted to say something. Yeah, I I just wanted to bring out the point again here, joe I I think this the, the structuring discussion around clients offshore investments is one that is, that is very important and it's worth stressing to clients and I'm sure Janet does it with her clients as well. And and and the reason being is it goes back to something that we talked about previously, the fact that there's more and more South Africans who are trying to access international investment opportunities. So, but it's going into into a field that's not that familiar with for a lot of them. And it's got it's it's got its pitfalls. I mean, Janet talked about the the the impact on the rand appreciation, but it's it's also about all those unforeseen things, about the ability for authorities and other jurisdictions to tax your assets. It's about these processes that wayne talked about about winding up offshore states. I mean, we've seen to talk to his point, I mean, we've seen examples where people have got multi jurisdictional states that have taken eight or nine years to wind up at considerable cost that they do it. And I think we've all got examples of that, but I, you know, there's one thing to talk about how to structure your portfolio into access growth opportunities. But the other thing is really to make sure that you do the right thing when you take your money out of the country, you do it appropriately and that's not even going into what the reserve bank will allow you to do as well. Okay, Janet. So we're talking about people wanting to take their money offshore and to your point earlier, you know, it makes sense within their financial planning. But are you seeing a lot more interest now at the round, at current levels or people wanting to take their money offshore? The other thing that we're seeing at the moment is just in my practice over the past year, I've had three clients immigrant, so take your pick are they going to take their assets all the way to Australia or all the way to Portugal or even Italy. So having an appropriate structure and knowing what the tax regulations are on the other end becomes more difficult for financial planners in South Africa and wrapping clients and getting them ready for that move when they say to you a year ago, okay, By november, we're leaving and we're gone and you can carry on managing our investments as long as we've got the appropriate structures in place. So this ability to wrap clients and have their investment strategies in place with the products that both wayne and Andrew offer makes it easy for for us to present to clients and continue to be their advisors internationally. So zoom phone calls and meetings online have just carried on happening with my clients and it's been a fascinating experience swapping um, expenses in Portugal for expenses in South Africa and how much more expensive fuel is there. But you know, it's so much cheaper than rates and taxes on their properties. So looking at those budgets changing, but having the flexibility in the, in the rapper to be able to pay them a trickle income has been fabulous. And that's what you need to start considering is that you've got this international global investment strategy that can then pay them wherever they might be in the world. Okay, so Wayne Janet talks about an international strategy. Does the endowment rapper work for someone that isn't a South African taxpayer anymore? Yeah, I mean one's got to be so, so as Janet mentioned, you know, people are going all over the place and every country has got a different view on various investment structures. Trust for example, I mean, I've attended the step conference recently and You know, one of the guys who stone spoke about, you know, people coming with trust and if it's not longer than 10 years, you know, all sorts of tax consequences. So you gotta be, you gotta make sure the jurisdiction that you're going to, how you know what what is their view in terms of whatever type of structure you holding. But as an example, the U. K. Is not is not very positive towards our s a endowment rappers. Um, and in fact what happens is when the person lands on the other side, they normally give change of address notifications and then it's our obligation to uh you know, say to the hmRC, look, these guys got to suggest notified of the gest strange and then obviously the HmRC see if they had a taxpayer in the UK and if they are, which, which inevitably they will become if they stay there long enough they deem a 15% C G T compounded every year on that investment, whether you get 15% or not, they deem 15% return. So in terms of uh endowment or rapid structures, you know, my my advice is, you know, you need to get out of that structure before you become a tax resident. But then other jurisdiction, because the problem is that We in South Africa as the institution, we compelled to take tax. So if the client is resident in the UK, they're going to attack him at 15%. And if he does do any switches or change of shares or whatever in the portfolio, we're gonna tax him at a 12% capital gains tax as well. So you could end up paying in a double tax within within the rapper. So you've got to get advice and make sure that the vehicle that you have is adaptable to the new jurisdiction that you're moving to. So Andrew we're talking about endowment rappers not being the probably the right policy or product for someone immigrating, but what about the investment platform? Can that still work? Yes, I know that can because that that doesn't give you it doesn't really the portfolio in in a structure that gives any sort of benefits to a South African tax resident. I mean effectively all that is, is an administrative platform to allow the ease of managing your portfolio. So it doesn't confer on on any other benefits to the client, rather just just an ease of administration. So so we actually have clients use that from from anywhere in the world because ultimately they just need to report that as an investment holding to their relevant tax authorities. But I would, I would agree with what he has said, I I think if you, the rappers that we offer to the South African tax residents are, are, in my view very, very good options, but if you're going to be emigrating and no longer going to be tax resident in South Africa, because the life companies that offer them our tax in South Africa, it doesn't make sense to take that risk of having a double taxation event in your hands. Yes, I know it. And this is for example where the guy's got a stockbroking portfolio custody portfolio with us and as we, we put the wrapper around it, if he's going to immigrate to the UK, you take the wrapper away and as Andrew says, you know, you keep the plan, you keep the stock broking platform and he takes that with him and then whenever, you know whenever the tax and they also work at this is the income or the Cgt earned on that and then he can pay the appropriate taxes in the jurisdiction, that is it. And what we're also looking at and you know, we used to have offshore businesses in London for example, so called uh uh you know, they had a thing rapper but an international rapper and that is something you know, you could you could probably look at investing so ideally how to create a product. Now, you know, I'd like to have an international rapper and he's a rapper and I mean as you know, not as South Africans go abroad, they work in, you know abroad for a while and then come back again to South Africa, it would be very nice to switch, you know, s a rapid international rapper and and vice versa. Um But yeah, me just being not a big product guy uh easier said than done, but you know, that is that is ideally what what you would like to look. And I mean for example, we had a client immigrating to Belgium and they didn't worry what you brought in, we got tax opinion, they don't worry stuff that you bring in to Belgium, they they're not worried about it, so it is very high so that client is quite happy to keep on paying S A 12% C. G. T instead of your 48% in Belgium. So you must you must get proper tax advice from qualified people in terms of the jurisdiction that you're going to move. Okay guys, so what I'm hearing here is it's not just simple going offshore, you need to know what product you're going into, you need to know where you plan to live one day because of different tax jurisdictions. Let's get back to the fact that it's nice and easy. I'm a South African, I'm not planning to immigrate, I'm using the rapper because of the Cgt benefits and estate duty benefits, so why would I choose one platform over another Janet? What what was, what should I be looking for when I decide which platform to choose, It's probably bulking your assets. So as a picture yourself as a 90 year old trying to stay on top of your investment strategies, if everything is all green or if everything is all blue or red, that makes it really simple for clients and, and as, as silly as that sounds, um, when clients start to age on, that becomes a really relevant discussion. You know, we've not lost any investments and that's why we bulk things in one place. That makes a big difference. You also get some softening of the fees so the fees are better cheaper by the dozen, so to speak. But then the other thing that's important is the flexibility of the investment platform. So a life rapper gives you access to almost any investment strategy or any investment overseas. Whereas if your financial advisor is not able to give you advice because of their licensing categories, um, they haven't got a cap to license, then they're going to be restricted to mutual funds from overseas that are, have taken the time to register themselves with the financial services board. So they've got a restricted list of investment strategies. I don't know maybe wayne. And Andrew would like to weigh in on that because they'll have different perspectives. I just know it's, you know, color coding, makes it ready coding. Okay, what was it? Red, green and blue, Very interesting. Planet Wayne. Or maybe Andrew, who wants to kick in here? Maybe I can just, I can start here. I think it's important to note that the there are some restrictions in terms of what can be marketed to South African clients. So I think the, the authorities in this country are aware and cognizant of the fact that it can be quite a dangerous and confusing world out there and and there are certain structures in place. So for instance, the type of products that wayne and I distribute in South Africa can only be offered by life companies who have an offshore branch outside of South Africa. So one of these big international life companies who have a similar sort of structure like Wayne was talking about previously, an offshore rapper are not allowed to market to South African clients and that's predominantly for client protection purposes, because at least by by a South African company selling offshore structures into South Africa, the client has recourse to the South African companies here in case they want to, you know, if they've got any complaints for issues with them. So I think that's that's the first point, so they are obviously a few players in this market, but it is, it is from a, from a regulated point of view. And I think the other thing to note and Wayne and I have both been in this industry for a long time to, and remember, you know, in the, in the late 19 nineties and early 2000 South Africa was a ripe destination for, for less scrupulous asset managers who would come into the, we should come into the market here and and obviously try and convince people to take their money out of the country, a lot of it through fear and and and people wanting to just get there as part of the country and things go wrong and those, those companies disappear and those clients have got very little recourse. So I think it's important that people deal with institutions that have got a an onus on a duty to report and to to be responsible to their clients here in South Africa. I don't know what what what Wayne's views on that are, but that for me is important Uh with 100%. And I mean, we've seen, you know, as you say, we've been around a long time, we've seen international, other international platforms come and market in South Africa and I think because of tighter regulation, you know, they started getting scared and and moved out, but they have, a lot of them have left a bad legacy, you know, with clients in South Africa. I mean just take old mutual, for example, uh, it was Skandia that we brought, we change and until Mutual International, then it went to Quilter and now called the soldier to a company called utmost for one that we could name point being, I mean you lose complete touch with who those people are and who do I phone and, and when you moan, I mean it's not easy to get somebody to help you. So, uh, and, and, and, and I mean you also where, I mean a lot of products, well why don't you products being sold at the moment that compete against us quite a bit. We could maybe leave that for another day, but those are also sold through these uh, you know, international platforms that you, you never see these guys. And uh, and the fees are also a little bit old school compared to uh, our fees. So be very careful, be very careful when you access that, that type of Okay, wayne interested. You did something interesting there, you threw in the word fees, Janet talked to me about fees of going offshore and why would I go offshore with my direct dollars versus just buying a feeder fund? So, kind of connected question there on fees. Really connected question. But I think Wayne was way too polite. Old school fees. Come on, Wayne. We've seen percentages per quarter. We've seen admin fees as a, as a dollar, a pound based per quarter. So I've seen £45 a quarter just to keep your money doing nothing. And the admin fee and the financial advisor took all their fees upfront and disappeared. So before you've even started investing, You're -8%. I mean, come share some horror story, if you really want to talk about it, then uh some guys use back and loaded funds funds as well. And that just adds a couple of extra surrender penalties if you had to move up. So yeah, so there are some horror stories out there and try to unravel them when a client comes across my desk and they say, well, I've got this thing and by then it's become a thing, it's no longer an investment because they hate it Because all they've seen is the money disappearing. And then you try and take the money out of there. And as Wayne pointed out, you suddenly minus another five or 6% for doing nothing. So yeah, fees can be a horror story when dealing with the South African companies who have a footprint here. I think that that's critical both wayne and Andrew was spot on with that. Being able to walk into an office in South Africa and say I've got this issue, help me figure it out, makes a big difference. And the fees here are very comparable to a local investment strategy. I mean, it's not particularly different and you're not looking at culturally admin fees and extra fees on top of that, and and things like that. So they're far fewer scary stories when you start investing with a locally represented offshore platform. Um, feeder funds have an additional layering of fees so that the company can send your money offshore and you can invest offshore as if you were investing offshore, but you're actually using your South African rands. um, and and for that, there's an additional maybe .5 in that the negative of doing that, to my mind, if you have an opportunity to invest offshore is that you're going to start as a South African paying your capital gains tax on the movements in the rand, which is not really your intention, your intention would be to be paying capital gains tax on movements in dollars or pounds, whichever your investment currency is. I don't know if Wayne or Andrew have something to add to that. Yeah, I mean uh you know, in my discussion yesterday and Andrew mention, you know, the various ways people take money out and the opportunities, what I said swap is obviously one of them, you know, for your smaller plants, but but uh it's a trust, for example, cannot invest directly offshore. So, and as a swap is the only option for them. And I mean, we all know there's a lot of big chunky money in s. A trust, people don't want to take the money out and distributed to beneficiaries, because now you bring it back into their States again, but they know that the Ocean Trust has to get, you know, proper offshore exposure. Now, you know, we we offer a private assets, what capacity with various companies. And the advantages that when we take the money out as an asset swap number one, that trust can invest into any investment as a normal individual can do so share portfolio or variety of funds, not just feed, if not feeder funds or any of the funds. Um And we obviously, the asset sort provided monitors that the there's a set of rules out here too, so the money cannot pay off shore, but the big advantage of the trust doing it this way. And Andrew mentioned, you know, we've got branches uh in the jurisdictions that we operate out of but we've also got, you know, permanent establishments there which determined that you allowed attacks or you must tax the investments in the currency of the branch. So these s a trust and essay companies for that matter are taxed in hard currency um and not in race. And also if it's a if it's a trust with natural persons as being the beneficiaries, that money is invested into the individual tax pool. So that trust gets taxed at 30 and 12% in hard currency and not in rain. So in actual fact, if you if you actually analyze one of the best investments through the rapper um it is that of an essay trust investing directly directly awful. No, I'm saying, you know a lot of our chunky premiums is exactly that type of that type of business. So it's a private asset swap into the rap, Getting the investment tax in hard currency. And it s trust, as I said, was that beneficiaries taxed at 30 and 12. So it's a massive advantage. Andrew, do you see much demand for African Trust using your facilities, your products? Yeah, we do. I mean we've got the same sort of experiences as Wayne does and it is a genuine advantage for for South African Trust to be able to do that infrastructure, their their affairs in such a way. But I just want to go back to a couple of issues if you don't mind quickly, just on the, on the feeder funds, you know, again, and it links back to that fee discussion so you can get a feeder fund in South Africa and you, like Janet says you're, you're adding, you're adding a fee on top of that to get a exposure effectively to South African version of an offshore asset where you can externalize your money and get exactly the same fund at, at a fraction of the cost. So, you know, again, if you're looking at at why international has changed in terms of a fee point of view, there are horror stories from many years ago, but the structure and international portfolio these days, you can do it as cheap or cheaper than a, than a local, uh, investment. I mean, for example, were putting E T F s onto our platform. Now, some of the E t F s out there are seven or eight basis points or 0.7 or 0.0 8% as a, as a management fee. Now that's to get investment exposure for that sort of cost nowadays happens internationally. It's now available to South African investors, which I think is an important point. And I'm so glad you brought up the so on glaciers platform. Now can you go and buy any if you want? So we were putting a restricted list. So it's, I mean we don't find that there's that there's demand for any E T F in the world, but but we certainly find that there is demand for guys who want to use passive investments. So we've got a core, we're putting on a core range of E T F. So you'll have the MNC i world, you know, the emerging markets or the main areas, we're doing some style E T F, semi Sgts, etcetera. But yeah, so, so we, we find that it is definitely a, an, an investment option that people are looking more towards. So we're we're actually adding, it's, it's not like at the moment it will be in the next couple of weeks. Sorry. Wait, you wanted to say something? I think just to come back to Andy's point regarding, you know, asset swap, feeder fund versus direct. The other advanced obviously is the money you can pay out in hard currency offshore if you wanted to and if you want to bring it back, which is what an assault must do, then you bring it back. So you got, you got both of best worlds. Um, we're doing it directly. Okay. So my next question to you, none of, you know, like maybe Janet will. All right. So we have the situation with Janet said the fees now broadly similar between offshore and local and you explain to us why you go direct rather than offshore feeder funds. I mean, feeder funds because they're expensive, but a local platform from what I can see can take anywhere from 2 to 3 days to implement a trade on the offshore platforms. They have a thing called day dealing funds, which can take five days to trade. Can you please explain to me Wayne and Andrew why this is the case, particularly money market funds? Obviously you daily dealing is a big thing. And if you look at the funds, as you say, you know, they talk about t, which is same day plus three or plus four in some cases plus five. So if you get the instruction into the company, let's say at 12 o'clock, normally Nuhn Nuhn UK time, if it's, if the funds trade there, then you do get that day's price, but you will only see it in three or 44 days time, reflecting. And that means, so you get the money and you get the price, but then they've got to get the assets across, money is going to be moved across. In some cases it could be bonds that are involved, it could be property, that that's involved. It could be second and stuff. So it takes a while to get, you know, to liquidate and get the money across. Hence the three normal as the three day trading cycle to get the money to the asset management, then let's go move it on to the client and then sometimes you buy and then into another fund. Um, and it takes you another, you know, three days to do that because the same process goes, you know, in, in, in, in, in traverse city. So unfortunately that, you know, that is how it works and it's not us as the platforms that determine that it's the, it's the asset managers themselves, they determine what timeline they want to, to, to, you know, to operate it. Sorry, wait and let Andrew speak now because they've got to give him a chance here. But Andrew come on in this day and age. I can do a Bitcoin transaction in three seconds. I'm in a money market fund offshore and you tell me you'll take five days to settle before I can even by the equity fund I want to buy. Please explain to me how in this day and age this is happening. So I get and I and I share it with you. But it it is a function of the processes that are involved. So again, so you're sitting with a U. S. Dollar Money market fund, you say again? I want to switch into the Blackrock Global Equity fund. Okay, let's just say which, which is also data. So we'll put a redemption in today to two to the dollar money market will receive that money in two days time. If we're lucky. So if it's a. T. Plus two settlement, then they'll send us the money in two days time. At that point we can place the trade for the for the Blackrock fund. So we'll get the N. A. V. Of that day, but it will settle in two days time once they've received the money that we've sent them. So, so for you looking at it, you can't get you can't sell today and get the Blackrock price tonight, we have to wait for the money so we can place the trade. So we've got enough time to send blackrock the the the money to settle that trade again. It's not it's not perfect. And as Wayne says, it's not us necessary making the rules. It's how the how the underlying fund companies want to want to trade or determine the process of the trading. And the other thing just to mention it is worthwhile setting expectations. Because if you decide that you're going to go from your dollar money market into your sterling into sterling fund, we received your dollars, we then make an exchange and again in exchange should be something that happens over, you know, straight away. But that can take two days for the bank to return it to us in sterling. And at that point, are you seriously going to do with currency transaction, connect two days? If you're transacting into into Iran's Australian dollars, it can take up to five days. It's crazy. Okay, Janet you wanted to say something? No, I want to say the system is broken when it comes to transacting like that, because one of the things I've noticed is that we send the money back in time and when I say that we're sending it into a time zone that's not South African, but oftentimes our admin is sitting in the future time zone, so you're not dealing in the same time zone. So the only way I've been able to explain it to my office is that we've sent it back in time at an extra day because they got it yesterday or they get it tonight in our time and tomorrow they might action it, but only the next day. Well the admin people figure it out and deal with it and when you're dealing international banking, it is a nightmare. It's not simple. It really is not simple. So I have empathy but I'm also frustrated. So for sure, I mean frustration for sure, but it's not it's not that easy. And also some of the platforms, you you also do bulk traits so you'll wait you wait all day up to a certain point and then send the bulk trades across as well. It's not like stop broken dealing desk where you do it as and when, you know as and when the trades come in. So it is what it is at the moment. It is what it is at the moment. Yeah. So the other thing I look, I mean, it's clearly it's clearly an area that that's ripe for disruption and the ability to do things more efficiently. But but you've got the complication that it is a cost jurisdictions and and and and you know, different people applying different rules to the different fund managers in those different places. So, so I mean we we spent a lot of time trying to make sure we can do things as efficiently as possible. Ultimately, we we have to play with the rules with the financial institutions that we, that we are dealing with. But, but trust me, nothing frustrates me more than telling a client that it's going to take me five days to switch a daily traded fund. It's crazy. Yes, When, and then there's obviously the risk, the risk for the asset manager as well, you know, that gets a lot of trades and he can't get through them and the price moves against him, well then he's gonna be liable. So they do allow themselves to a couple of days to get to get their ducks in a row, so they don't have claims against them all the time when Andrew Janet, I think the offshore markets are right for disruption. And I think when you talk about something being a daily dealing fund, which ends up being a seven day turnaround, something needs to change. But what I have picked up from all of you today is that taking money offshore today is much easier than it used to be, and that genuinely South African companies are out there to protect client's interests in South Africa and they're having an office here makes a huge difference because there have been a lot of what we all words when unscrupulous individuals selling products in the past. So I'm very glad to see that's actually improved and I'm extremely excited that E T F. S and I'll be on some of these platforms because clients do look for it. They want something that's cheaper and they want something that's quick to trade, the quick to trade part is clearly impossible, but hopefully in time that will fix itself, I live in hope. Um, but yeah, I think offshore investing and I like to see that clients are starting to take their money offshore again, because the rand is pretty strong at current levels. Thank you very much for your time today. Thank you